Inside Starbuck’s Digital Revolution and the Leadership Lessons Behind It

[00:00:00] Adam Brotman: He made my day. I got an opportunity to work with a lot of great people. And the Starbucks brand was just so perfect for digital and Howard Schultz’s leadership. So we mapped out how we thought this could go. We knew that we needed global payment and global loyalty and connect all those systems together. And we created this flywheel, not thinking about this as something that we wanted to bolt on, but actually thinking about, like, how do you build something amazing that feels on brand? I wanted to be a primary parent and I lived that. And I personally did a lot of stuff at home with regard to being a parent that made me very tired at work the next day. I’m gonna purposely craft my career to be work from home, primary parent. When that little flame of fulfillment goes out, like, I just need to leave, I always tell Addie, three golden rules are be a good listener, be a good learner.

[00:00:59] Kevin Rice: We prioritize social emotional skills over core curriculum every single day.

Welcome to CEOs and ABCs. Real stories from execs who lead at work and show up at home. Career moves, parenting wins and fails, and everything in between. I’m your host, Kevin Rice. Here’s today’s episode. Welcome back to CEOs and ABCs. My guest today is Adam Brotman, a renowned digital innovator and CEO at Adam helped architect Starbucks digital transformation. Later stepped in as co CEO of J. Crew, co founded Brightloom, a restaurant tech company and is now building Forum 3 while also authoring his first book, AI First. Over a career that spans founding play networks to leading at global brands, he’s earned a reputation for marrying customer obsession with business rigor and for turning big messy transformations into simple on brand experiences. But what makes Adam’s story even more compelling is the human side choosing to be a primary parent, setting real boundaries and redefining success beyond the office. Today we’ll talk about taking ownership as a leader, the cost of burnout, how to be truly present at home and at work, and how to prepare our kids for an AI native future. My guest today is Adam Brotman. Adam, thank you so much for joining me.

[00:02:09] Adam Brotman: I’m happy to be here. Thanks, Kevin.

[00:02:11] Kevin Rice: Adam, you’ve had an incredible career and I actually wanted to start out by saying the. The work you did in digital transformation at Starbucks really created a wave in the industry that my company rode all the way through till the time we exited. So I don’t know if you had any idea, but the work you did to completely rebuild Starbucks as a digital first company actually had so much cascading effects into Other restaurants, as well as companies that provided services to restaurants like mine. So I just wanted to start out by saying thank you. I don’t think my company would have been what it was had you not proved the value of digital through your work at Starbucks.

[00:02:50] Adam Brotman: It made my day. It’s really nice of you to say that. I want, I have to say though that it was. I just had an opportunity to work with a lot of great people. So it was a team effort. And the Starbucks brand was just so perfect for digital, that and Howard Schultz’s leadership. So I appreciate you saying that, but I want to deflect the credit to the team and to the brand, as.

[00:03:13] Kevin Rice: Most great leaders will. What was that experience like for you? A lot of us experienced how the digital loyalty experience and ultimately online ordering and mobile payments fundamentally changed the way that consumers interacted with the brand and catapulted the brand. What was the feeling of building something new that we on the outside as customers wouldn’t have gotten to experience?

[00:03:36] Adam Brotman: Well, interestingly, at Starbucks was our first and biggest customer at Play Network, the digital music company. So we got Starbucks as a customer and that was an incredible propellant, as you can imagine, as an anchor tenant customer to Play Network success Howard had. Schultz was effectively the founder of Starbucks as we know it today, and the CEO of Starbucks during its meteoric rise. And he left for a bit as CEO and came back in the depth of the financial crisis of 2000. I was lucky enough to be hired into Starbuck, this mandate of help us build and execute a digital strategy under his leadership. It’s coincidental when I left to go to J. Crew from Starbucks, it was right almost the exact time that Howard left to hand cranes over to another CEO. And so I was there for that like nine year period that Howard kind of came back as CEO. And I’ll tell you that his leadership absolutely was key to what was happening in the building when it came to the success of digital. Even though he’ll be the first to say he’s not a digital strategist or a technologist in any way, shape or form, but because he would drive, you know, every aspect of what anybody there that was a leader would do was absolutely focus on what the mission of the company was in terms of taking care of the customer, the customer experience, and elevating the brand at all times and having like to make sure everything we did effectively had a created a better relationship with the customer. For example, he would sort of set the tone. And then one time he asked me in his office like, what surprised you about being at Starbucks maybe a year in? I said, howard, everyone will take my meeting. It’s incredible. Which is interesting because I’m not in sales, I’m in strategy, and I’m in a new function called digital. But what it allowed me to do is go to Silicon Valley and learn. I credit Howard for really sort of pointing to the North Star of what it meant to build amazing experiences and things as a Starbucks leader. And then I just applied it to digital and had the power of the brand behind me so I could. It could open doors and I could go meet people in Silicon Valley and learn from them and get access to people that I would never have access to. And then I. I just really tried to also follow his lead about learning the business. Something that my Uncle Jeff, who ironically was on the board of Starbucks and an early investor in Starbucks early in the day. So he. Funny how all these things kind of line up.

[00:06:02] Kevin Rice: Your Uncle Jeff did very well for himself.

[00:06:04] Adam Brotman: He did. He was amazing. And so Jeff and Howard, these two mentors in my life, you know, it was absolutely important that you understand.

They would talk about, know the business, like, understand the business and, you know, what makes the business tick. And so what was happening inside of Starbucks with me and the entire digital team that I surrounded myself with, is that we really understood what made Starbucks Starbucks. And then we understood the magic of digital and technology. And we just started architecting experiences and thinking about dots to connect and. And we just started building it. And we had a lot of forethought about it. He mapped out how we thought this could go with Starbucks digital ordering and mobile order and pay being sort of the cherry on top, the critical thing that it would culminate in. But we knew that we needed to do mobile payment and mobile loyalty and connect all those systems together and get a lot of customers very used to being on our ecosystem, and then at some point connect that to the stores and the store experience and just go for it. When it came to mobile order and pay, and we created this flywheel, and we were aware that we were doing that, but, you know, it was started with, like, the leadership of Howard and the brand. I’m serious. And, like, really not thinking about this as something that we wanted to bolt on, but actually thinking about, like, how do you build something amazing that feels on brand as you’re doing it?

[00:07:33] Kevin Rice: Yeah, your flywheel at Starbucks was actually really inspirational for me. I’m writing a book right now on taking corporate lessons and business frameworks and how to apply them into Family life and parenting. And so your flywheel was on the surface about creating transactions, but underneath it, it was really about creating connection. And so I took that parallel and I applied it to creating connection with your kids. And so my flywheel is called Spark Flywheel and it starts with which is creating safety. P which is offering your presence, A, which is attuning to your kids, R which is creating rituals and C which is all about celebrating. And this has a compounding effect, much like the Starbucks example where each step builds and ultimately creates a self propelling flywheel for creating connection. What’s also really interesting is how you started your career. So I was, I was looking through your resume and you actually started as an attorney.

[00:08:32] Adam Brotman: Yes.

[00:08:32] Kevin Rice: What made you go into law and then what prompted the transition into founding Play Networks?

[00:08:40] Adam Brotman: So my, my late uncle, my dad’s brother, Jeff Brotman, who was also a mentor to me my whole life, he was an attorney and he, you know, he, he’s sort of famously known for being the founder of Costco, co founder of Costco. He’s actually the one that came up with the concept and then brought on Jim Sinegal and has been just an incredible success. And I always looked up to him and my dad and Jeff Brotman, my uncle was a lawyer and he was telling me my whole childhood when I was already saying I wanted to be a business leader following in my family’s footsteps. And he would say, well, the best way to do that is not to go to business school, but to be a lawyer. And because if you become a business lawyer, you get to rub elbows with leaders and be in boardrooms and be in situations at a young age to learn business in a way that you would not get accessed if you were just a young non lawyer. And so he encouraged me to go to law school and encouraged his, the capital E. But I was like, great. And I went to University of Washington Law School. The whole time I was in law school though, I was like, I was doing well, by the way. I flourished in law school better than I’d ever done in any of my academic career before. And yet I kept finding myself sort of confused, like, I don’t really want to be a lawyer, I want to be a business person or I want to be, I wanted to be an author or a teacher or something.

[00:10:01] Kevin Rice: And he kept saying, no, no, you are an author.

[00:10:03] Adam Brotman: Yes, I am. And he, and it’s funny because he would have said, and it’s true that what I was thinking about was the creativity that comes from business and entrepreneurship. And building companies. And he, but he kept me on the straight and narrow and said, no, this is the way you should start your career. And. And so I, I went to law school and I did well. And then I became a lawyer. Funny story, one time I, I accepted a. The first job offer that was made to me and my friend Joe, who was my classmate. We, we did really well. We were sort of like the two musketeers. And we got this job offer to be litigators. It was like this big, big salary. And we got this job offer after our first year. And I was like, okay, I’ll take it. And my uncle Jeff was like, you’re going to go back in. And I accept that because that’s not the plan. You’re supposed to be a business lawyer, not a litigator. And I sort of my tail between my legs and kept going and became a business lawyer for about a year and a half. And then I remember specifically one day being up on the, literally the 59th floor of the Columbia Tower in Seattle, looking down, beautiful view, pushing papers on my desk and thinking, like, why am I here doing stuff for other people when I could be building things and creating things and following my passion? And one of my clients or potential clients, he never ended up in my client were working on a digital technology project using digital music. And I was so enthralled. I helped him write the business plan, and next thing I know, I was going to my uncle again and my dad saying, I’m going to quit my law practice and start this company. And they were very frustrated with me, but I did it anyways. And that was sort of how I went from why I became a lawyer, but how I got out of being a lawyer.

[00:11:44] Kevin Rice: When I was starting my company, it was pretty much straight out of college. And people always ask me, what gave you the confidence to start a company? And at the time there was no risk. Right? I didn’t have anything to lose. And so it was a lot of just being naive about what it takes to start a business, so we might as well try. What. What gave you the confidence to start a business?

[00:12:07] Adam Brotman: I think similarly, I didn’t know any better. Like you said, I didn’t know how hard it would be. I learned really quickly. I didn’t know what I didn’t know in that sense. I was living in an apartment with a cat and. And you know, and it was like, okay, let’s give this a go. And I do remember specifically, I think a lot of entrepreneurs can relate to this. After quitting my law practice and you know, putting, you know, trying to raise money from angel investors and you know, maxing out credit cards to help the company and doing all the things you do as a first time 20 something year old entrepreneur. And I remember just like putting my head in my hands, just going like, what did I do? What did I sign up for? And you know, got through it and ultimately I wouldn’t change it for anything. Everything in my career became sort of a stepping stone to the next thing and lessons learned and it was all part of the journey.

[00:12:59] Kevin Rice: Yeah. How do you think you grew as a leader through that period of building play networks and you eventually left and then became the CEO of J. Crew and then into Starbucks. What was that leadership journey evolution like for you?

[00:13:17] Adam Brotman: First of all, I had to learn how to be a leader as a 27 year old raising venture capital, where by definition everybody that worked for me and for us was older and more experienced than I was at what we were doing, which is great. So learning how to lead in that situation was definitely being thrown into the deep end because you just basically learn by like these mistakes you make. And nobody tells you you’re making the mistake in the moment because you’re the CEO and your board might tell you that you’re making a mistake. But that happens, you know, once a quarter generally. So they’re not in the weeds with you.

Yeah, it’s a big, it’s a big trial and error experiment at the time. And it’s. I think that’s true. It’s thinking about AI now, enforcement, learning. It’s like if you do something right and you got the answer right in the training of the AI, like you get like plus points and if you got it wrong, get minus points. And I think that’s how humans learn anything too. And, and I think as learning to lead happens that way as well, you sort of do it and realize like, oh, that didn’t work very well. And in the moment as a leader, particularly as an entrepreneur, you’re not thinking like leadership lessons. I’m learning leadership lessons. You’re just trying to like survive and advance. And so it’s only kind of unconsciously or later that you sort of realize, oh yeah, I’m a better leader because I ended up stubbing my toe and also doing some things right. And so that combination just sort of evolved into leadership. I wish it was more like profound and scientific than that, but I really think that’s how it works. And I was lucky that I was in my late 20s and my leadership Team was made up of people probably in their late 30s, call it mid. Mid to late 30s, when I was in my late 20s. And they were better, obviously, we hired them, you know, sales head of operations, head of technology. And so they were really good at what they did. And they had 10 years on me, and, you know, they. They listened to me and I. I paid attention to that. So one of the things that’s remarkable now is, like, that I gain confidence in that I have a good enough sense of EQ that if I was kind of a clown, I was a clown certainly at times, but if I was a clown in general, then they would have not respected me. You can kind of feel that. Right. And so I just sort of was vulnerable enough to sort of pay attention to. Where were they following me? Where were they pushing back? What was I learning? Slate Network crafted me a lot as a leader. I was lucky also that we. I had some great mentors on my board. And we ended up actually bringing onto our board a guy named Lon Troxell, who was the CEO of one of our big competitors. And then he kind of retired from that. We brought him on our board, and then he was a great mentor for me in the moment. And so I learned leadership lessons from him. I learned, like I said, leadership lessons from my direct reports, like what not to do and what to do and just.

But really paying attention to kind of how people reacted to what I did. And I think that’s how you learn.

[00:16:14] Kevin Rice: Yeah. I’ll tell a story of one of my biggest cringe moments that I learned a lot from. And then I want to hear if you have any kind of moments in your career where you made a mistake or you did something, and then that kind of helped you see a path to grow. And mine was early in building our agency, before we focused in on restaurant technology, we were working with all kinds of brands. And our first Android app project, this was probably in 2011 or something like that, we were building for bear paint, and we were at the finish line getting ready to deploy to the App Store, and we were on Skype call. So it was definitely a long time ago. We were on a Skype call and I’m chatting to our developer and I’m like, hey, these guys don’t understand. And I just cringe to even say these words. But I texted him. I was like, just tell them how to do their jobs. And then of course, he gets on and he starts screen sharing, and my words are just on the screen. And it was horrifying.

I.

Oh, My goodness.

Because I was exposed, right? So I. That’s obviously not what I meant. What I meant was like, help them understand what needs to happen to get this code launched.

But in my brevity and obviously in my ego at the time, because our company was growing and I was still young, my ego was getting too big. My. My ego was exposed. And I learned so much about showing up the way that I want to show up and carefully articulating and communicating exactly what I mean. And speaking like, more authentically from my heart, that I always look back on that moment and I will never forget the inflection point that that created for me. So that’s my biggest cringe story. I’m curious if you had any moments in your early career that changed kind of how you look at leadership or how you performed as a leader.

[00:18:10] Adam Brotman: Don’t expect that your boss or your board or your shareholders, someone’s going to come and rescue you. I remember at Play Network, for example, I remember sitting at my desk one time and the bust happened. So this would have been after. It was probably sometime in 2001 is my guess. You know, 911 had happened and the. The stock market crashed and venture capital was hard to come by.

We had to like, recapitalize our entire company. And I and all of myself and all of the angel investors that invested in Play Network at the time were just going to get massively diluted if they didn’t step up in a pay to Play around. I remember it was very humbling, and that’s an understatement because I just didn’t. It was a moment where I was like, shoot. I really didn’t understand this and I didn’t take the time to understand.

And I just trusted my AC board, like, as if they were somehow going to rescue me, like a parent or something. And I remember learning a lesson in leadership at that moment. Just feeling like I’d let my investors down, I’d let my team down, I’d let myself down. And it was a reminder not to put myself in positions where I was just expecting someone else as a leader, both as a company leader overall, but also just as an individual leader within a company.

I remember having that moment going, no, that’s not how this works and you have to really own it. Ultimately, Play Network ended up succeeding in a sense, and I was able to see that through. And thank God that I had enough humility and I think connectivity to the. To everyone around me that I stayed as the leader the entire time and which is kind of remarkable. Right. I mean, I could have gotten fired, maybe should have gotten fired.

[00:19:50] Kevin Rice: Adam, when you were at Starbucks, you were leading this massive digital transformation, but at the same time, your family was transforming. If my math is correct, and I’m not exactly a math major, but I think your daughter was born while you were at Starbucks. Is that right?

[00:20:05] Adam Brotman: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. We have Addison later in life, but thank God we did. And.

And that’s right. So at Starbucks, towards the tail end of my time there.

[00:20:15] Kevin Rice: Yeah. So how did. How did your. How does your world change when you became a father?

[00:20:20] Adam Brotman: When. Well, you know, at first, it.

It’s interesting for those that are parents that you kind of know what I mean. Like, it’s all about, like, how much help can you get at home and how much are you helping out? And I wanted to be so connected to our daughter that I personally did a lot of stuff at home with regard to being a parent. That made me very tired at work the next day. Like, I really decided when we had Addison, like, I wanted to be a primary parent, and I lived that. And so at first, it was less about. I didn’t need to, like, change my travel schedule as much and my work and career ambitions as much. I was just, like, having to make sure, like, okay, how tired am I willing to be the next day in terms of handling some of the, you know, nighttime duties? And I felt, like, guilty almost if I was at work and I wanted to be home just, you know, physically holding Addison and playing with her and stuff in that first year or year and a half or so. That’s kind of what it’s about, in some senses, being physically connected. But then we left Starbucks when Addie was only a year and a half and moved to New York, that was the beginning of where I’d say I realized, oh, I have a choice to make here. If I want to be a. If I want to be a primary parent and really involved, I can’t just be, like, on the road all the time, and I can’t just be at work all the time. She started to talk and become a little toddler. Um, I found myself wanting to be at home and really feeling, like, the stress of, how do you do both? How do you be a primary parent and a primary leader at work? And, you know, sort of went through that at J. Crew a bit as much as I could. But ultimately, I think the fact that I left Starbucks and I left J. Crew were not unrelated. I think when I left J. Crew and came back to the West Coast. I started doing some entrepreneurial stuff with Starbucks, but became kind of more of a free agent at that point. And then Covid hit and we had to work from home. But I was, I was already starting in my sort of J. Crew time and in my post J. Crew time, starting to, like, realize, like, wow, like, this Zoom thing or, you know, whatever video meeting platform you use, like, is kind of amazing. Like, you could actually work from home and still be like, a relatively important player in the business world. And when I started to get that inkling, I just, like, almost like, subconsciously leaned into it until recently. Right. Decided I’m going to purposely craft my career for a while to be work from home.

Primary parent debt.

[00:22:59] Kevin Rice: Yeah, it sounds like we were kind of on a similar timeline because I became a single parent full time with a infant and a toddler right around Covid. And while Covid was, you know, a very tragic period for a lot of people, for me it actually was a bit of a saving grace because my travel schedule was really impacted leading up to that. And when I became a single parent, I really didn’t know how I would possibly do it while still performing the demanding responsibilities of my career.

And so having all of the airports and travel shut down and doing everything over Zoom kind of forced me and allowed me at the same time to be there, to be available at least before and after work. I was obviously working very long hours, so at least I was there for mornings and evenings. I wasn’t traveling. So it really was a bit of a saving grace for me.

[00:23:52] Adam Brotman: Yeah, I agree. You had mentioned when we were talking before we were recording, I think this idea of just by being with your kid doesn’t mean you’re present with your kid and stuff. And I, I, I think I still struggle with that. I, I think the thing I sort of beat myself up on every morning of, like, trying to be a better dad in the moment the next day than I was a prior day. I, I have a long way to go there. I mean, people will be like, oh, you’re a great dad, and whatever, but I, I can be better. But I will say, though, so this is an interesting story. When I was at J. Crew, I went from Starbucks to J. Crew. And I was. This was in 2018, so full, two years before the pandemic. And Zoom was a thing it was existed, which was, it was incredible. And you remember at that time, Zoom was mostly being used by people, not for the video calling, even though it were mostly because we were all used to that stupid polygon conference calling stuff.

[00:24:43] Kevin Rice: That we all started.

[00:24:44] Adam Brotman: So the world has started to move, even before the pandemic, to, like, technology allowing for, I’ll call it virtualness. But it was done through conference calling. And Zoom was this way of, like, one click on your iPhone and you can, you know, you can do the conference. You can do a better version of a conference call, and didn’t have to remember the passcode and all that stuff. And you guys remember that. Like, so it was so then I remember in 2018, I left Starbucks and I was going to join J. Crew, and they said, oh, this is just sort of random. They said, well, I said, I can’t move my family.

[00:25:19] Kevin Rice: It was like.

[00:25:20] Adam Brotman: It was like, I can’t remove my family until summer, ironically, was one we could have totally moved before summer. It’s not like she was in school. Like, I know now, like, you really can. But I just said, well, I don’t want to do it until summer. And they’re like, fine, why don’t you basically be virtual Ish from call it March through May. And I was like, great. And so I basically spent. I’d say I went to New York, like, every other week for a couple of nights, something like that. And in the meantime, I was just doing all this stuff on Zoom, this incredible new thing called Zoom in my life. And I noticed that I could be working and I could still see what was going on with Addison, even if I wasn’t, like, holding her at the moment, I was there. And then as soon as I got off a call, I could be there to, like, spend a few minutes with her, bonding, going for a walk or whatever I was doing. And then I. I got into my rhythm of being a dad and being a worker through that time. And then I became kind of addicted to it, to be honest with you. Of, like, I just want to be around her constantly and be there for her. But even if I’m working, which kind of works and kind of doesn’t, but I. I think now a lot of us do that. But I. I was sort of an early adopter.

[00:26:30] Kevin Rice: Yeah. You had mentioned, you know, sometimes you beat yourself up over parenting and trying to be a better dad. And I think that’s in some respects, like, no, you don’t want to beat yourself up over it, but, like, in some respects, that’s shows that you’re being reflective and you do have the intention to continue to grow as a parent as well as in your career. Man, I. I dropped the ball. Like, I. I have rules where I don’t use my phone while I’m reading with my kids or building Legos.

And I broke that rule last night, and my kid called me out on it.

[00:27:02] Adam Brotman: We.

[00:27:03] Kevin Rice: He had, like, five minutes left before bed. We had been building Legos. I pulled out my phone. He was independently finishing a step, and I started, like, checking some emails. And when I told him it was time for bed, he had a major meltdown. And I was like, wait, like, you already know it’s time for bed. I told you 10 minutes ago, it’s time for bed. Why is this happening?

And I eventually got it out of him. He was like, you wasted my last five minutes. And I was like, what do you mean? He’s like, you were on your phone for my last five minutes?

He called me out on it very well. And he knew I had broken my rule. And what he was. What he was really highlighting to me was energetically, I wasn’t there for him. I wasn’t present for him mentally, even though had I not been on my phone, he would have just continued doing what he was doing, finishing that step. But the difference was I wasn’t there, connected with him. And so I had to repair and I had to apologize and be like, you were right. I’m going to give you five minutes more. And so we built for five minutes. And then at the end of that, I told him it was time for bed, and he more than happily went to bed. No problems. So I’m, you know, as much as I, like, have intentionality around being a good father, I still screw up all the time.

[00:28:10] Adam Brotman: Yeah, no, I can. I can. I can a thousand percent relate to that story. I’ve been called out by Addie many times, like, dad, you know, get off your phone, or. And to your point, what difference does it make if I’m on my phone if we’re together? And she’s like, oh, because I’m not your only thing you’re paying attention to. And they know that, and that’s important.

Yeah, I. I definitely don’t get an A grade for that all the. All the time.

[00:28:33] Kevin Rice: I know it’s the. You know, we’re. We’re growing. So I. I think what I took away from. Cause I took a bit of a career break after I had kind of gotten through the height of my career, sold the company, really experienced my own version of burnout, which was very much disconnection for myself and disconnection for my family. Taking that time off allowed me to realize that I. I needed to be even more intentional with my personal life. Than I did in my career because I. I figured out how to be a good leader. I figured out how to build business. But when it came to parenting, I had no playbook. I had no mentors. I had no board to give me feedback or guidance or advice. And it meant that we need to put even more into that side of our life to, you know, make a holistic life that, you know, feels meaningful and fulfilling. So I. I think we’re all. We’re all learning and we’re all growing. You had earlier talked about coming to a where you knew you needed to make a change. What was kind of building during that time for you where you realized, no, I really do want to be more present for my children or for my. My daughter.

[00:29:37] Adam Brotman: I don’t think I was as conscious of it or as intentional about it as I am now. Reflecting backwards, I think about that time at J. Crew. It was a bit of a chaotic for a number of reasons unrelated to the story. But during that time, I just found myself, like, wanting to just be home. If Addison, for example, was going to go do some, like, gymnastic activity or do something else, I was like, well, I want to be home when she gets back. So even before the pandemic, I. I found myself doing that more and sort of pushing the boundaries of, like, what could I quote, unquote, get away with? As a, you know, president, e suite, and eventually co CEO of the company, how could I sort of balance the. The time at the office versus the time at home? So when I left J. Crew, I chose to do this project with Starbucks called Brightloom that allowed me 100% to be virtual. The company was headquartered in San Francisco, but we were going to kind of make it. Turn it into a virtual company. That was the sign that I was, like, starting to exercise that muscle. And when I went into business with my business partner, Andy, and we formed forum three, and Andy’s been amazing, but I was like, I’m going to lay down some boundaries and some ground rules. And those are, I can live where.

[00:30:57] Kevin Rice: I want to live.

[00:30:58] Adam Brotman: I can work where I want to work. You know, you’ll get me. You’ll get the classic Adam always on sort of guy to a. To a fault.

But I was intentional. And at that point, I realized, like, I’m doing this because I don’t want to go work for a big company and be, you know, constantly at an office or on the road and have them control my schedule and whatnot. I want to control my own schedule. I want to control my own work style. And I’m doing that not because I’m being lazy.

I’m doing it because I want to be around Addie as much as possible.

[00:31:34] Kevin Rice: I think a lot of people are in that similar position where they might be in a comfortable career, but it might not be very like conducive with the life that they want to create. Do you have any sort of guidance or advice for people who are considering maybe leaving a career comfortable job to go out and start something on their own?

[00:31:55] Adam Brotman: It’s kind of funny because it’s related to the parenting thing. We were just talking about that and related to the biggest leadership lessons, I guess are just really, if you’re going to do something like that, make sure you really got your arms around why you’re doing it and what the trade offs are. And I don’t think a lot of us do that. I think you’ve mentioned a couple of times this concept of burnout. Right. And, and, and I can relate to that. Like there have been times in my career and I think when I’ve ever left a company or a job, it’s usually because I’m somehow burnt out on something.

[00:32:29] Kevin Rice: What did that look like for you? Because it looks different for everybody. My burnout was, I was still performing at a very high level professionally, but personally I was crumbling. So like, what did your burnout look like?

[00:32:39] Adam Brotman: To me it’s going to sound really weird. My burnout is like where my like my fulfillment well, is empty. It’s not about typical burnout, by the way. And I suffer from people like not enough sleep or you know, in those moments where you’re like, you’re like physically too stressed and not taking care of yourself and all that kind of stuff. I have plenty of that in my life and always have. But for me, when I say burnout, it’s like the flame within me burn is burned out. Does that make sense? Like, it’s a different way to use that term. But it’s like every time from leaving Play Network to leaving Corbis, I mean, I left Corbus in the middle of the financial crisis. In the middle of the financial crisis, I quit an incredibly high paying job and they were telling me, don’t quit, please don’t leave. Like, what else can we do? Same thing at Starbucks. When I left Starbucks, you know, I sat down there like, please don’t leave. Like, what else can we do? And I’m, and I look back now and go, like, what was I crazy? Like in each case there’s an element of what People would have said and did say, like, you’re crazy. But like, when that little flame, I don’t know why I’m pointing to my, like, chest and it’s where it feels like it is. Like when that little, like, flame of fulfillment, like when it goes out, like, I just need to leave.

[00:33:51] Kevin Rice: And.

[00:33:51] Adam Brotman: Yeah. And I feel like that’s what’s happened at each time, as opposed to some other, like you said, some other external or physical or financial thing. It was always like something within me. I just.

[00:34:02] Kevin Rice: That’s a great, you know, I mean.

[00:34:04] Adam Brotman: The flame just goes out.

Yeah.

[00:34:06] Kevin Rice: Like, the fuel for that flame is. You mentioned purpose and meaning. If you don’t have those, the fire goes out. And that’s probably a really good indicator for people to consider if they’re in the right place. Yes.

[00:34:17] Adam Brotman: But back to your question, Kevin. My words of advice, since you asked me to give advice, my words of advice would be, and I’m speaking from someone who has not heeded this advice in my own life. So I’m saying, I’m saying this from a position of do what I say, not what I did, not what I did. Which is, which is, you know, when that happens, you tend to make. It’s sort of a psychic or emotional decision at that point. And it’s not a logical or well thought through decision. It doesn’t mean it’s a wrong decision because, like, follow your heart or follow, you know, your gut. Yeah, yeah. However, be aware when you’re doing that, if that’s what you’re doing, that you might not that you should not do it, but like, be like, what am I not seeing even if I’m going to make this decision? Because at that point when the flame goes out, like, Godspeed anyone tries to talk you out of it, like, at that point, like, like, you’re just like, I’m just gonna, you know, whatever. And. Except you’re not thinking about like the trade offs and you’re not, you’re not consciously thinking about those things. So I would really encourage people to be like, at least if you’re gonna leave a job or leave a comfortable situation to go do something that’s either gonna be more. Or your passion or more entrepreneurial or whatever. Just, you know, be aware that you might be doing it for that reason. And if you are like, you need to, you need to sort of think about, like, well, okay, well, what’s going to change in terms of like, things that I, I didn’t think about things that were comfortable, things that trade offs that I, I Wasn’t thinking about whether it be personal time with your family or yourself, or financial issues or psychological issues that you might go through, you’re just not thinking of because you’re just like, you can’t be talked out of it. I’m thinking from maybe that was just me, but I. I wish I could go back and in every case be like, well, have you really thought this through? Not that you shouldn’t do it, but like, let’s maybe do it in a slightly different way or at least be aware of certain things that you weren’t aware.

[00:36:05] Kevin Rice: That’s interesting. You say it like the exact words you just use is, maybe you should do it in a different way. Like, I had. I was at an event last week and I was talking to a founder and he’s building his company for Exit in the next few years. And he asked me, he was like, if you were to look back, would you have done anything differently? And that question and ultimately became a journaling prompt for me for like three nights because I really wanted to dig into it. And he was acting like, would you have worked? Because we were talking about family and sacrifice and, you know, kind of the tax that being in a leadership position puts on you.

And so he was asking like, would I have worked any less hard, knowing that that hard work eventually got me to an acquisition?

And I don’t know that I would have worked any less hard.

I think I would have been more intentional with my non work time, and I would have not let my work creep into my personal life as much as, I mean, it completely took over my personal life. And so would I have worked any less hard? Probably not, but I would have just been really, really careful about the time that I wasn’t working hard before work, after work, weekends, and not letting you know the next pitch meeting, the next client meeting, be driving my thoughts when I’m with my kids. So same question to you is, would you have done anything differently?

[00:37:24] Adam Brotman: Yeah, no, that’s. I think the way you just said it was really, really well said, Kevin.

I think in hindsight that what I would have done differently in almost every case would have been clear about boundaries that I’m either setting with myself or with others. I, I just now getting good at like my middle age, you know, I, I would. It’s something that I definitely would. And the boundaries might have been different in every case.

[00:37:46] Kevin Rice: Right.

[00:37:47] Adam Brotman: Like, now I’m clear what the boundaries are. But one example is that when I left Starbucks to go to J. Crew, and I’ve never shared this Publicly, so I’ll be careful what I say. But, like, you know, like, I alluded to a second ago that there was an element of chaos going on. And. And then I. I should have been clearer. Even though I left the company and I.

I left Starbucks and I started a J. Crew, when I encountered that chaos, it was not my chaos, but I became something I was a part of and involved in. I should have just been like, no, like, this is not okay. And then the truth is I should have been clear about that going into it, and I should have been clear about it in the middle of it. So when I left there and I went to this other thing again, in the spirit of oversharing a little bit, but I’ll do it, is that it happened again. And the funny thing is, I. It actually said to myself and to the people I was working with, like, oh, I’m not going to let. I’m going to learn from that lesson. So I. I was clear about the boundaries, but I didn’t live up to my own boundaries. Like, so in one case, I didn’t set clear enough boundaries. In the other case, I was like, I’m going to learn that lesson and set these boundaries. And then when it, you know, kind of met chaos again in a different way that I sort of was unexpectedly sort of put into, I wasn’t. I wasn’t clear to be like, no, this isn’t going to work. Right. I eventually did, you know, thanks to my business partner, Andy, who closest friend and became a business partner and is my business partner now. It was great that I had him to bounce some of these things off of, and he was seeing what was going on and was like, that’s not cool, and you shouldn’t have to accept that. So I slowly started to kind of get clear on that kind of stuff. But I. If I could go back in time and definitely those two cases, I would have been much clearer about what are my boundaries and why do I have these boundaries and what’s okay and what’s not okay and why I would have been, like, really clear with myself. Forget about other people. I would have been really clear on, and I would have been able to, like, own it and live it and say it in a way that I’m. I’m better at now, but I wish I had been better earlier in my career.

[00:39:46] Kevin Rice: Yeah, no, I mean, we talked about expectations. We’ve talked about boundaries. These are things that are very present in our corporate careers and in our personal lives.

I. We kind of went back into your career. I also want to look forward. You recently wrote and published a book called AI First. Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking, your daughter’s maybe 10 years out till she starts whatever career she goes into. And I can’t think of anybody better to ask than, like, what do you think the world is going to look like when she starts her career?

[00:40:22] Adam Brotman: That’s the question. I go to bed every night wondering. I would say very different, obviously. I mean, extremely different. And it always is the case from generation to generation. But I think that.

I think that the. I think. I think there’s going to be, like this desire or need for everybody and somewhat of a desire for everyone to be much more entrepreneurial than they’ve ever been. And it doesn’t necessarily mean starting businesses. I think that. I think the world is going to be a lot of individual contributor roles and companies, and today they call them like YouTubers or influencers or creators.

I think that’s a precursor to when you can create an entire company, when you can create whatever software you want. I think it will go on steroids. And in terms of. For her, it’s going to force a bunch of people to really think about, like, what kind of content do they want to create or what kind of things they want to create? Not just content, like, what kind of things do they want to create in the world? Not normally how you think about work. Like, work. It’s like, what’s my job? And as opposed to, like, what do you want to create? And I’ve always been lucky enough to get my career at a place where I always think of what I do as a creative exercise. Being creative like an artist, but also being.

Creating things like a generative builder of things. And so for me, it’s fascinating and exciting and I think it will be for Addie, because she’s like little acorn that fell from my tree. But so I think she’s going to be great, but who knows, right? And it’s kind of scary because it’s going to be a weird world where we have AIs everywhere and doing jobs and interacting with people in ways that are like science fiction. And so that that’s going to be the world she’s going to be in, for sure.

[00:42:03] Kevin Rice: Yeah. In your book, there’s a quote where you talk about speaking with Sam Altman and him telling you that the future as it relates to the kind of business that you’re in, is going to involve basically 90% of creative marketing activities being replaced by AI. But then you mentioned the question that you Think about every night. The question I think about every night is how do I prepare my kids for a world that I really can’t fathom, that the jobs of today won’t be around for tomorrow, but completely new careers will be. So how do you prepare your kids today for what will be in the next 10 years?

[00:42:42] Adam Brotman: Man, I don’t know. I always tell Addie when I go to school, like, the three golden rules are, be a good listener, be a good learner, and be a good friend. I said. I said I made it up when she went to love that preschool. And I was like. I was like, just follow those rules, and they’re going to serve you really well at school. And I think. I think they’ll serve her well in life, which is, you know, those things. You know, be curious, be a good learner, be a good friend. You know, be kind to other people and.

And be a good listener. You know, like, you know, like, as in, you know, follow a sense of social decorum and sensibilities. And I.

I think if. I think if kids just sort of stick to those kinds of things, you know, creativity and kindness and learning, that they’ll be fine. I’m an optimist, so I don’t. As opposed to, like, oh, you know, don’t worry about computer science. Study the humanities or like, whatever. Like, I don’t know. I think if you follow sort of higher order sort of rules, you’ll. And guiding principles, you’ll. You’ll be okay.

[00:43:46] Kevin Rice: Yeah. Beautiful. No, I agree. I think I don’t have a strong point of view on it yet either, but it’s something I think about a lot, and I journal about a lot. I think right now what I’m focusing on is family values or core values, which my values in my career are very similar to the values of my family. And then character development and behavioral development, like social emotional skill. My kids are homeschooled, and we prioritize social emotional skills over core curriculum every single day. Reading, writing, arithmetics. Important.

Learning how to learn is probably more important.

Adam, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate how candid you were about choosing to be a primary parent and setting real boundaries and recognizing when the flame goes out. And for connecting those lessons from your journey through play networks to Starbucks to J. Crew and now forum three.

Your perspective on presence and repair and preparing our kids for an AI native future, where you mentioned being a good listener, a good learner, and a good friend, I think will really stick with me and our audience. It’s been a real honor to have you on CEOs and ABCs. Thank you again for joining me.

[00:44:56] Adam Brotman: Yeah, thanks for having me. I enjoyed.

[00:44:58] Kevin Rice: If you’re enjoying this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes. CEOs and ABCs is all about helping you grow in your career and show up at home. We’ve got many more amazing guests coming up, so tap, follow, and stay tuned.