Why Some Workaholics Never Burn Out

Kevin Rice (01:29)
Welcome back to CEOs and ABCs. Jennie, thank you so much for being here today.

Jennie Magiera (01:33)
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Kevin Rice (01:35)
You started your career in the classroom and you’ve gone on to represent and improve education at almost every level possible. what’s your mission and how has that inspired you throughout your professional journey?

Jennie Magiera (01:46)
So our team is global and we support educators, faculty, and even students from all around the world. And we do that in two main ways. We provide training and certifications to ensure that educators and students know how to use our technologies with intent and for purpose-driven use cases. So to make sure it’s not just using technology for the sake of using technology, but ensure that it’s

It’s

providing positive impact for teaching and learning all over the world. And then the second piece is communities of practice. So, as a lifelong educator, one of the ways that I felt really sustained and I was able to grow in my career was I had an amazing professional learning community. And so we support PLCs all over the world by creating role-based communities, regional-based communities, and all of these things are at no cost.

And are just meant to support, uplift, and empower the many educators and students that we serve.

Kevin Rice (02:49)
It sounds like you just landed in the most perfect role if I look at your career and where you ended up in order to be able to create a lot of impact for students all over the world and the parents who are trying to help educate their kids. was there a deeper purpose or meaning that has carried you throughout your career?

Jennie Magiera (03:08)
I became a teacher because I had a teacher who changed my life and I wanted to do for students what she did for me, and so that’s why I went into education. And from the first day I set foot into the classroom, I was like, I’m gonna be one of those teachers who’s in my same classroom for decades and decades, and I retire and I teach people’s grandchildren and et cetera. And my career’s always taken left and right turns I didn’t expect, but what stayed constant is

Trying to create the magic that Miss Buckman created for me when I was a fourth grader in Central Florida. And so it’s like, how can I scale that impact and that mission? So I did it each year as a classroom teacher of record, then as, a building leader, then a school district administrator, university professor training, pre-service teachers, all the way to my role now, supporting educators all over

the world. So it’s really getting back to how can we make sure every learner in the world has that feeling where they have an educator who truly sees them and is helping them be the best version of themselves.

Kevin Rice (04:13)
I love that. And I think that’s something that I really try to bring to my own kids is it’s not necessarily what they’re learning, but it’s about creating a joy and love for learning that will carry them on so that they can teach themselves as they get older.

So you’ve got this really unique point of view that most people building for AI or AI and education will never have because you’ve used technology as a teacher in the classroom, you’ve deployed it as a district administrator and now building at Google. What perspective does that both sides of the table view give you that most people building for AI and education just simply don’t have?

Jennie Magiera (04:50)
The biggest thing that I say to my team, our number one value is humility. Google has this like company-wide value of respect to the user. And I think that really gets into that concept of humility, but we take it a step further because there’s a lot of people on my team, over I think it’s like 70% of my direct team has some level of experience in the classroom. A lot of them have well over a decade, like I do. some of them only have two years. But

The thing that I name is like I’ve spent, almost two decades of my life directly in education. And I still think that I can’t speak for educators or students or parents or administrators. Because number one, I had an experience and or not even an. I taught in Chicago public schools, a suburban district, a university, but even that, like those were singular like to me, right? Secondly, I haven’t

Been in that role in a minute.

Even if I literally stepped out of that role yesterday, the fact I’m not sitting in it today and I’m not showing up to a classroom or a district office or a university lecture hall, things changed between yesterday and today. And so I say to my team all the time, your educational background isn’t there to say I know and understand what teachers want and need.

Only practicing teachers and faculty and students can tell us what they need. So we have to go into this with a ton of humility.

We also have to understand there’s a diversity of educators and students out there in the world. Even within the city of Chicago, where I live and where my third grader, my rising third grader is at our neighborhood Chicago Public School, her school is vastly different than a school three miles away. And so we have to understand the diversity of context.

What my team’s educational background allows us to do is understand that diversity, to really internalize the humility and have empathy for how difficult it is in the role, and have the language and context to speak directly to educators and understand them at a level that maybe others might not have that same level of understanding. So that that’s where we come from, and I think that’s what we bring to the table.

Kevin Rice (06:52)
Right, ’cause every teacher has their own circumstances and their own experience that they bring to the table and how they teach. And you specifically along this journey, you became a mother and that was a difficult process for you. how did becoming a mother change the way you think about the work you do every day and preparing other people’s children for the future?

Jennie Magiera (07:14)
It changed so much. as you named it was a a fraught journey to motherhood. it took me six years to have my first daughter so I think you can fill in the lines. That was

peppered with losses with a lot of shots. I went through IVF multiple multiple IVF cycles. And I started this process when I was a classroom teacher. It went into my experience as a school district administrator and then carried on to my work like working for you know a global team and so

Throughout all of that, it really gave me a lot of perspective, like the effort that it takes even to become a parent. But then when Lucy was born, I had this aha moment about how singularly protective and focused I was on her success and giving her everything and making sure that she had the best pathway to the brightest future. And I remember

hundreds of thousands of students that I’ve taught over the years sitting with some parents and being like, Why can’t they understand where I’m coming from?

I’m just trying to teach the Illinois State fourth grade math curriculum or middle school math curriculum. and they would just be so upset about what I thought were the most minute of things. And then after Lucy was born, I was like, I need to write some apology letters. I understand

why they were coming with such fervor and passion. Because for them, this wasn’t just a tiny detail, it was their child’s future. And so understanding,

how singularly motivated a parent can be, a guardian can be for their their child’s success. It’s it’s one

Kevin Rice (08:52)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie Magiera (08:52)
thing to understand it for at a high level and another to like go through it myself.

Kevin Rice (08:57)
Yeah, I mean teachers carry so much responsibility. we offer them so much authority to help guide and educate our kids through really formidable years of their life. And it’s such an important role in our society.

You mentioned going through six years of IVF and pregnancy losses before your first daughter Lucy was born. What did that experience look like when you were trying to conceive? And what do most people not understand about that unless they’ve actually lived through it themselves?

Jennie Magiera (09:25)
Yeah.

my gosh. So like where can I begin?

Kevin Rice (09:29)
Mm.

Jennie Magiera (09:30)
Like the scheduling is bananas. So for those of you who have gone through IVF, you know like

It’s so unpredictable. you go in every single morning to get tests and blood draws. And I’m like so needle phobic, so that was a whole separate level of trauma. It’s not just the shots, it’s getting your blood drawn every day. And then they look at the the data that the doctors look at your tests, and then they call you and they adjust your medication. And then one day they give you a window. they’re like, you might go for egg

Retrieval this day or that day, but you don’t know. And then they just call you and they’re like, come in today. Okay, if you’re a classroom teacher in a school district, like most school districts in the world that have substitute teacher shortages, sub-shortages, for me to just call that next that night and be like, I’m not coming to school tomorrow, like

That that doesn’t work. And you have to write let you know substitute lesson plans. I was writing them every day, not sure if I was gonna use them and then rewriting them the next day. Then when I became a school district administrator, it was just as bad. I was missing board meetings and not everyone understands. They were like, why didn’t you plan this better? Why did you schedule this today? I was like, that’s not how IVF works, friend. It’s not like scheduling a procedure. And then I was in this global role, I had to travel.

And because this was multiple years, and I remember I was supposed to give a keynote in Colorado outside of Denver, and I couldn’t go because I had to have egg retrieval, and so I had to cancel this keynote at the very last minute they were understanding, but I’m sure it was difficult for them. And then another time I had to cancel it because I was recovering from egg retrieval. And then just like the emotional trauma of going through all of that and investing the time and the money, and it’s like

so mentally draining of showing up to the doctor every day, doing the blood draws, doing the other tests, timing everything, doing the trigger shot, getting the egg retrieval, then waiting, getting tests, then doing the embryo transfer, and then waiting five days just to find out.

It didn’t work, or even the egg retrieval to find out, like none of the embryos. So it’s just you invest so much of your heart, it’s incredibly expensive, and honestly, time, and you move mountains in your work schedule to do it.

And then to have a failure, it’s it’s it’s really it takes a toll on not only your physical well-being, your mental health as well as your career. Like it definitely, had an impact in my career trajectory because I spent so many years with Lucy, but I’ve I have two daughters, good news, this worked out well. But I went through IVF again for Nora and it was rinsewash repeat with her.

Kevin Rice (12:01)
it’s a lot of heartbreak to continue on through and and just navigate. And I I’m sure anyone else who’s a working professional, a woman in the workforce who’s thinking about embarking on this process, do you have any guidance or advice for them of how they kind of navigate balancing their career and their personal desires for parenthood?

Jennie Magiera (12:23)
I read an article a long time ago by Anne-Marie Slaughter. I think it was in The Atlantic called Why Women Can’t Have It All. And it sounds like it’s this very negative, Debity Downer, pessimistic way to to look at the world. But it was actually super inspiring and uplifting to me. It was saying that

there’s some advice out there that says women can have it all. Like you can work the perfect job, be the perfect this, and be the perfect mother, and go through IVF and do all the things. And this article says actually you can’t, and that’s okay. And to make peace with that, and to say this is what I prioritize and this is what I decide to do, and I’m gonna I’m gonna do that as best I can, and then I’m gonna come over here and do this as best I can, but

I might not be a hundred percent in both places. And I think once and I am the product of an East Asian culture where it’s like.

100% is not good enough. You have to get extra credit. I gotta get that quote unquote Asian A on everything. And so the idea of not being perfect in every aspect of my life was so difficult for me to wrap my head around. But once I accepted that and I was like, I I can’t do it all. So I’m gonna do this, and this is what’s important to me right now, and then I’ll come back over here and see what I can do. It was number one freeing, but it allowed me to be better in both in all arenas. I did I wasn’t perfect, I didn’t have it all.

but I took out a lot of that mental tax I was putting on myself.

Kevin Rice (13:50)
Yeah, I think that’s the kind of grace that we need to give ourselves, no matter what you’re going through, loss of a parent, any sort of struggles in your personal life. Sometimes things gotta give and you go through different seasons where you’re more focused on work or you’re more focused on family or you’re more focused on just dealing with, the things that come up in life.

I was thinking back in my career and I probably worked with maybe 500 people.

at my company throughout the years. I don’t recall anybody ever bringing up that they were going through IVF. and there were a lot of women who got pregnant. I’m sure some of them had to go through IVF, but it wasn’t something that was talked about. Do you think it’d be important to to share what you’re going through with other people in the workplace so that they can be more supportive for you?

Jennie Magiera (14:35)
I would love to say yes and I think that if you are in an environment where you feel like you can, then you should. But I also want to be honest and and that like not everyone is in a supportive work environment and

Be penalized. I know it’s technically illegal and you’re not supposed to, but there’s always there’s always context. So I am fortunate that I am in a position of privilege where I can name things. So I I named it, I told everyone you can see I’m very forthright and I’m not apologetic about it. And so I shared it with people, I shared it with my manager, with my colleagues, and all of the situation, all the different jobs I had while I was going through all the different years of IVF. But then I did it when I was nursing

Too. When I had a new board and I was going back after maternity leave, I tried nursing, it didn’t work. And then I ended up exclusively pumping, and I had to do it a bajillion times because I kept getting mastitis, an infection from missing pumps, because I was trying to make meetings and I was like, this isn’t worth it. This is actually making me sicker where I’m missing more meetings. So instead of putting a block on my calendar where it was like busy, I was like pumping breast milk.

And it because I tried pumping and they’re like, what are you pumping? So I just was like pumping breast milk. and people either were like, good to know, not gonna book over that time, or some people are like, hey, this is actually really urgent. Do you mind taking a voice-only call while you pump? And sometimes I’d say no, I need the headspace to focus. But if I was like, this is a pretty important call, I’m gonna do it. But it gave me that latitude to name where I was at. And I actually it’s so funny today.

someone else on another team at Google pinged me. It was so random that it literally happened this morning. And she was just coming back from maternity leave and she pinged me and she said, I just want to say Jennie

You know, after having my first baby and going through months and months of exclusively pumping and coming back to work, I want to say thank you to you because you were always so transparent with everything you were going through, whether it was IVF or pumping or whatever, you put it on your calendar, you talked about it during meetings, and it made me feel safe to see a leader at Google doing that that I can now do it too. So that’s where I say to your point of can you say it or not? If you’re in a position of privilege where others look up to you and you have the political

or organizational capital to hold that space, do it because you’re creating space for the people around and under you. But I also want to name be aware of your your context and your surroundings because not everyone is as lucky as I was to be able to name that.

Kevin Rice (16:58)
do you have any advice for companies how can they be more supportive for women who are going through IVF or just into early motherhood?

Jennie Magiera (17:05)
I think it’s training for managers too around the flexibility that’s needed and understanding it’s not just about the time off, but what does that look like? Google’s pretty good at that and we we have a lot of resources. I think in smaller organizations it’s sometimes a little bit harder. And then the other piece is support groups. my job is to create communities of practice. We have communities, employee resource groups at Google. So we have a bam being a mom at Google. So we

We have bam Chicago, bam, whatever. And like we get together and we talk about things and even policies we want to see changed. So allowing, your team to have that space, have the conversation and engaging with them and showing that, you know, at least you’re trying.

Kevin Rice (17:47)
That’s great. Well, Lucy’s seven now and Nora’s four. Is that right?

Jennie Magiera (17:51)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Rice (17:52)
So now you have two amazing children. I know the road was really difficult, but going

Jennie Magiera (17:58)
Yeah.

Kevin Rice (17:58)
through something difficult like that it changes the relationship. I’m curious, did going through such a difficult process change the way that you see them today? sometimes going

Jennie Magiera (18:08)
Okay.

Kevin Rice (18:08)
through difficulties just makes the result that much more special.

Jennie Magiera (18:12)
I mean, I’m obsessed with them. they’re my moon and sun and stars and everything in between. I definitely mom guilt them sometimes. I’m like, do you know what I went through?

Kevin Rice (18:22)
Ha ha ha.

Jennie Magiera (18:23)
I want to name again for like being transparent. I had really, really bad postpartum depression with Nora. I think going through IVF the second time, having a difficult pregnancy, again exclusively pumping, has a much higher rate of postpartum depression as well because of you can’t hold your baby while you’re pumping and it’s mentally taxing to have to do it so much. So I was really unwell with Nora and I had to take an extended leave. I had to really I I didn’t catch it right away.

Thankfully that has resolved. but like there were there was like a good many years with Nora where I felt like she was someone else’s baby. I didn’t have an emotional relationship with her. And that was really hard. And now now.

We’re besties. I’ve gotten there through lots of therapy, lots of support, lots of investing in one on one time with her. It was not an easy road. And I’m still cognizant sometimes of things that happen. I’m like, ooh, is that because I was so disengaged when I was going through a really difficult bout of P P D? and she’s so she’s like such a daddy’s girl. She’s a so attached to Jim. And I’m like, it’s because of this. And and it might be. But I think, you know, again,

as we’ve used the phrase already, having that space and grace for myself too, of they’re the number one thing in the world. When I have a bad day, I’m like, at least I have my girls. but also understanding the difficult parts that come with that as well.

Kevin Rice (19:44)
yeah, I can relate.

just my kids are healthy, family’s happy, helps me navigate all the difficult difficulties that, the world throws at you.

the question that a lot of people come to this show

to get answers on is how do you stay connected with them, given the demands of such a busy career?

Jennie Magiera (20:04)
So I travel so much. sometimes people are like, what are you doing next week? I like, Well, I’ll be in Paris next week, and the week after that I’ll be in Singapore, and the week after that I’ll be in Brazil, and they’re like, my god, your life sounds amazing. I’m like, No, it’s it’s a horror show. I have a four and a seven year old. Also, I’m forty three. I’m not a young gal anymore. jet lag is hard, planes are hard. And so,

It’s really hard. And my and I’m so grateful that I have a partner that my husband is we don’t have a nanny or anything. he just is a superhero and he figures it out and he’s so supportive of my career and my job. And by the way, he’s he’s a full time attorney. He’s an in house counsel for a corporation. It’s not like he’s a stay at home dad. But when I am home, people are always like, You do so much with your girls, you give them such amazing experiences, but it’s cause I wanna double down on

the time I do have with them. So I’m like incredibly protective of evenings when I’m home, of weekends, and I just try and fill it with things that make us both happy. So it’s both filling my bucket. I don’t do things I don’t like. I try and find the Venn diagram of things that bring my daughter’s joy and me joy. So Lucy, my soon-to-be-eight-year-old, is such a theater kid. She’s obsessed with Broadway shows and we’re so lucky to live in Chicago. So

I’ll take her sometimes on a weeknight and we’ll go down and get last-minute tickets to Broadway and Chicago and go eat dinner at Peterino’s and like share a spaghetti and meatballs and she’ll get a Shirley Temple. I’ll have a glass of wine and then we’ll go see like, you know, the Lion King or something like that. And she gets dressed up. It’s so fun and she has like this core memory.

And yeah, she’s a little sleepy for school the next day and I’m tired for work, but we talk about that. We communicate. I’m like, hey, do you want to do this? This is what it’s gonna feel like. And so she goes into it, she helps make the choice, and it’s great. And then with Nora, she’s obsessed with getting her nails done. I mean, I could not care less about a nail salon, but I do love a bougie spa experience. So, I’ll get like a little back massage or get my feet massaged, she’ll get her nails done, we’ll sit and she’ll like gab

gab about her day and so we each have our thing that we do together.

And we all love eating out and I live in this really vibrant neighborhood in Chicago and I’m an insomniac and my kids I think inherited that from me. So if we all just find ourselves awake at three or four in the morning on a weekend, we go to IHOP and like it’s a thing that we do. We’ll go in our pajamas, get in the car, drive to an IHOP and get like a funny face pancake, and I’ll sit with a cup of coffee and we just have this middle of the night pancake date.

So finding these moments of magic between my, 17-hour days and international travel. I’m gonna spend a hundred nights in hotels this year, which is so scary.

But I try and when I am home make it really super special and again special for both of us. So it’s not my god, I had to do this really difficult day and then invest all this that’s draining for me for the kids. we both enjoy it. We go to Hello Kitty Cafe, And then it’s like I come away so thrilled and happy. The girls are and then my husband gets a minute to just go play golf or have some gym time somewhere.

Kevin Rice (23:11)
Great. I love how you bring that together. my oldest son just wants to play video games and I’m really restrictive on his amount of video game time. And if he had it his way, we’d just, play Minecraft or whatever

new games out together. But I don’t really like playing video games. And so I’ll have to compromise with him of like, okay, if we’re gonna play 30 minutes of video game time, then you’re gonna come with me rock climbing or surfing or doing something that I wanna do, but he enjoys as well. And

That allows us to both enjoy the experience. And then I try to bring in lessons and like you said, bring them into the decision-making process. So they’re learning values or character traits along the way so that when we spend time together, because like you, I spend more time in my career than with my kids. so it’s really important to make sure that that time with my kids is very intentional and then when I do get it.

I’m very present and I’m not distracted

Jennie Magiera (24:01)
Yeah.

Kevin Rice (24:02)
with work emails or Slack messages.

Jennie Magiera (24:05)
I said to Lucy the other day, or like a few weeks ago, I was feeling really guilty because I just got a few more work trips on my calendar and was like, I’m so sorry, Lucy. she has such a high emotional intelligence. Her EQ is through the roof. So I was like, Lucy, I’m really sorry. I feel really guilty. I’m gone so much. how are you feeling about it? Do you want to talk about it? And she’s like, Mommy, I’m okay with it. Cause when you’re here, we do so much. She’s you do way more with me than my other friends whose mommy stay home do with them. I like our life.

I feel like you care about me and I know that when you’re home you’re gonna do something really cool with me. So I’m not upset about it and my gosh, that was like such an emotional bomb. and I didn’t feed her any of that language. She just said it and I was like, thank you so much.

Kevin Rice (25:03)
I know you’ve described yourself as kind of a happy workaholic. has

Jennie Magiera (25:08)
No.

Kevin Rice (25:08)
that mindset stayed true now that you’re a mother or has it kind of shifted since having your daughters?

Jennie Magiera (25:14)
I think it’s you know what I say about my job sometimes? It’s like eating your favorite food every day, but eating sometimes way too much where you get a stomachache and way too fast. So especially as you get older, right? when you were thirteen, ten, whatever, you could eat a gallon of cookies and cream ice cream and be fine, like no problem, when you’re forty three, maybe less so. And I think that’s how I feel about work before and after kids. I

still love it. It still brings me so much joy. I still feel so mission-driven about what I do. But I’m like maybe I need to eat a little less of it and a little less fast, and like take it easy. So it’s difficult given my job. I can’t really put the spoon down on the ice cream bowl, but I am trying to be more mindful about what I say yes to and again holding my boundaries with things like dinner time and making sure I get in a family vacation, that kind of thing.

Kevin Rice (26:05)
Yeah. a lot of our audiences send in questions and comments and typically the sentiment is I feel like my work life and my home life are always competing against each other and I’m struggling to balance them. So you love your job and obviously you love your family and your daughters. Do you feel like work and family life are competing for your time?

Jennie Magiera (26:26)
I do think that and it certainly is that way. However, I don’t keep it separate. And I think it maybe it’s because my job is what it is. Lucy knows what I do and she thinks it’s really cool that she goes to school and they use Google Classroom and she made a slide presentation. She’s like, My mommy’s team makes that. she thinks that’s so neat, but then

we just took our kids to Google Family Day a few weeks ago and seeing where I work and whenever I come home I talk to her about some of the things I did. She feels like it’s not the secret thing that’s held apart from her. Nora’s four, so she doesn’t totally get it yet. She just sees Google as the place with lots of free food. But like

Lucy talks all the time about the job she wants and it’s interesting because she’ll be like, Mommy, when I grow up, maybe I’ll work at Google. I like computer science. I like jobs that help people, I wanna do important things like you, but I don’t think I wanna be a boss. it sounds like being a boss is really hard. I wanna be like someone at Google who just does the work, but nobody asks me any questions, like an individual contributor. And I think that’s great that I’m modeling for her like different roles.

and different types of roles that she’s having that critical thinking at age seven going on eight. So yeah, it’s a battle for time, but I also see it as another modeling of lesson for Lucy because she’s eventually gonna grow up and be a woman in a workplace and have to make those decisions. And eventually Nora is gonna be having those conversations with me when she’s ready.

Kevin Rice (27:49)
Yeah, it’s funny. My kids all the time they bring up what they want to be when they grow up. And it could change from a police officer to an astronaut to a video game designer. And it’s just constantly changing. And so I’m always telling them, look, you have a lot of time to figure out what you want to be when you grow up. I didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grew up until, I was in my thirties. And so I just try to remind them of let’s find your passions.

and allow your passions to guide where you want to go. It’s not really anything you need to think about right now, but it is fun to just talk about, What would that be like to be a police officer? Would that be scary? what would be exciting about that? Would would you be excited to go to work every day? those conversations are fun, even though, they’re so young and the reality of going off into a career is so far in the future.

for somebody who’s listening and they’re trying to balance a demanding career and be present for their kids, maybe they feel like they’re kind of dropping the ball. do you have any advice on what does balance actually look like? is it balance, is it integration, versus what kind of people assume it should look like?

Jennie Magiera (28:54)
I think it’s gonna be different for every person and their situation and their family, obviously, but I think it’s just taking a step back and being like, what is most important to you in different contexts? And thinking about at the end of the day, is your career allowing you to have a certain thing that you need in your life? is it bringing you that time to use your brain, that your time to be around adults, that time to feel like you’re having an impact? we’re all full humans. We’re not half a parent,

half a CEO or exec or whatever, right? I’m all these different things. Now like how much of my energy I can bring to those things is up to me. And so

For me, like Jim always jokes, my husband always jokes, he’s like, Could you be a stay-at-home mom? And I’m like, yeah, like are you kidding me? I’d love to be a lady who lunches, but like if I’m really honest with myself, I like purpose-driven work. I like going to bed each night and be like, I did something that’s gonna make a difference. And that’s not for everyone, right? I have friends and and family members who are like, I wanna a hundred percent devote life to to raising children, and that’s what’s gonna bring me joy. So I think it’s trying to think about that balance of when

the investment in your job is failing to yield the return on like whatever purpose that it’s meant to yield, then that’s when it’s like, let’s maybe turn down the dial there, or it’s like

inequitably stripping your time with your kids. And I I I would say, like, look at it like a business. When I look at my team and the programs and the things that we invest in, I’m like, what’s the ROI of each of them? we’re investing a ton here and we’re not seeing a lot of value. We’re investing a little here and like there’s a ton more value to be had. Let’s like maybe divest here and reinvest here. I mean it’s it’s we’re doing this at work all the time. And so it’s thinking about that in your in your home as well.

Kevin Rice (30:33)
Well, and speaking about work and and family,

as you’re leading AI and technology at Google for education in schools across the world, have you started to think about how you bring that sort of education into your own home and how you teach it to your daughters? Or do you test different things with your daughters before it goes into something you try at work? how are you kind of bringing

your work world into your family life with your daughters.

Jennie Magiera (31:00)
Yeah, there’s something at Google called dog fooding and it’s like a terrible metaphor, but it’s like you should try it before you ship it. And so we dog food things as as Googlers all the time. We’ll have the latest version of the phone or like a new

version of Gmail and I work on the EDU team so obviously there’s stuff that you can dog food as a Googler and sometimes it’s stuff that we can try with with our families and so you know I make the decision is this right is this not again my kids are four and seven so some of the things we design are not for four and seven year olds I wouldn’t try it with them but recently when they updated Gemini to be a lot safer and a lot more thoughtful for younger learners I started using it with Lucy.

And always, always supervised, always with me. So I would she’d ask me hard questions and I’d be let’s ask Gemini. And I’m Catholic by marriage. My husband’s Catholic, and we go to church every Easter and

and I don’t have been in a Catholic church recently, but I grew up Protestant. So we just had like a plain cross without the person on it. And in Catholic churches, like they put the full Jesus is there. it’s a little bit a lot for a seven and a four-year-old. So Lucy comes home from church and she’s like, What’s crucifixion and why did they do that to him?

Really like, my goodness, right? why did you take me to this terrible thing? And I don’t know how to explain crucifixion to a seven-year-old. And actually at the time she was six, and I was like, I don’t know how to explain the crucifixion to a six-year-old. So I was like, let’s see what Gemini says. So I knew about it from working with our engineers, and so we prompted it. She said, Hi Gemini, my name’s Lucy. I’m six years old. I just went to church and this, this thing, and I heard about this, and like, what is crucifixtion?

Fiction. It handled it so well. Lucy wanted to get at like the death scary part of it. And Gemini was like, thank you so much for asking. I think what you really want to learn about is what is the symbolism of the sacrifice that Jesus gave? And why do the people in the Catholic faith, why is it so meaningful to them that they celebrate that and they hold space for it every Easter? And what does that mean for you? As like the choices you can make, and what does sacrifice look like for you? And it like pushed her, and she kept trying to go back to the scary bits, and it was like,

I hear you, and it’s you know, that is a really scary thing for someone who’s your age to think about. I but let’s get back to what that means for you. that’s a scary thing. So he must have sacrificed a lot, and for his dad to sacrifice him, that must have been hard for him. Have you ever given up something? And I was like shocked. I was like, my gosh. So I remember going back to the Gemini team and being like, This handled it really well. what if she’d kept pushing? What would it have done? And I was there to be like, let’s turn this off and have a and so then she did eventually turn it off, and then we had a mom and daughter

debrief about it. She’s like, so I just learned this word sacrifice, mommy. What have you sacrificed? I was like, how long do you have? I’ve sacrificed so much to make you.

It it gave us the bedrock to have a conversation in a context that I wasn’t able to have. And then when you know, I th I thought the conversation had reached its end, I stopped it. And I was like, let’s stop and let’s talk. And then she and I debriefed it. And so then that sped back into some of the guidance I’ve given back to our teams about like how it talks, how it uses age relevancy, how we train and support teachers and families around like

you should be in the loop, you should be having the conversation, how do you debrief? and again, the way that I use it with Lucy isn’t the way that everyone should, but I do see so much value in it because of the way that I’ve been able to engage with Lucy and how it’s had really driven my ability to have complex conversations with her.

Kevin Rice (34:28)
It’s really impressive how it took that one piece of context of her age and then was able to decide what to focus on in the conversation and what is more important and more meaningful than maybe what was even asked in the first place. we have Alexas at our house in different rooms, and my kids will ask me questions, and if I answer it and they don’t quite believe me,

They’ll go to Alexa

Jennie Magiera (34:50)
Okay.

Kevin Rice (34:51)
and they’ll fact check me on Alexa. And maybe Alexa doesn’t know their age, but it’s definitely not that nuanced in how it gives responses, right? It’s not contextually aware of how it should be responding. no no offense to any of our friends at Amazon.

Jennie Magiera (35:08)
Yeah. I think, and I don’t know their technologies, but I think something for parents to know as their students and children are engaging with some of these AI technologies is prompting is critical and giving the technology the context of who is it, so every time, any time since and we’ve had a difficult conversation and Lucy’s should we ask Gemini? Sometimes I’m like, No, I think we could work through this ourselves. But sometimes I’m stuck and I’m Yeah, let’s talk to Gemini, and she knows

Now she every single time she prompts it, she’s Hey Gemini, and then she goes, Hey, it’s Lucy. Remember, I’m seven years old. Sometimes she adds random things. She’s like, and I just got done with circus camp and it’s summertime here, and I’m really excited, and da-da-da, and she’ll ramble. But then, Gemini will respond and my god, that’s so amazing. But then sometimes it’ll use some of that in the response. So, like when she’s asking about like why is the sky blue or whatever, it’ll be like, So it’s like when you were at circus camp this week. Did you look up and see that the sky was blue? And so the prompting

bit when you’re working with AI is really critical.

Kevin Rice (36:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, what what other like safeguards or practices do you put in place or would you advocate for other parents to put in place when they’re thinking about using

Jennie Magiera (36:15)
Yeah.

Kevin Rice (36:16)
AI with their children?

Jennie Magiera (36:17)
I think first of all, technology is not a monolith. Not all technology tools and organizations have the same level of like data safety standards. at Google, our our data safety is like no joke. And that’s why I felt comfortable using it with Lucy. But I would maybe take a beat and look at like

Read the terms of service. I know it’s the thing we don’t read when we click like I agree, like read it. Or run it through AI and be like, summarize this for me and plain people speak, you know, like not legalese.

And then two, always supervise, like sit with them and then debrief the experience. so it’s not just a kid on tech, but like I’m sitting there with her, and then afterwards we talk about it. And again, that yields a better human to human experience because there’s so much, it sparked so much curiosity for her. and I think maybe use it yourself. It’s sort of like the science teacher in me. Like, I would never do a science kid or a science lab with my students.

Before I ran the lab myself to see what could go wrong, what’s confusing? And so trying it yourself first so that you can kind of like understand where the pain points might be for your young person. And then finally, it’s not developmentally appropriate for everyone. And like, is there a purpose to using it? So are they the right age? Is there a purpose for why we’re picking up this technology tool, not just AI, but any tech tool? And making sure there’s a why behind it.

Kevin Rice (37:37)
Yeah, I my son had a end of year school project where he was learning about the local Native American tribes in our area and he needed help kind of writing up some information for his I think they call it like a museum exhibit that he was creating. And he asked me like can I use in this case it was Chat GPT to give some information and he just wanted it to basically give him the information.

That he needed to write down on this paper. And so what I did was I turned on learning mode, which uses more of a Socratic method. So it gives him some information, but then it asks him questions to help him develop his own thinking for the responses to the questions. And I thought that was a really great experience and flow because I sat with him, we did it together.

And it would give him some information and then it would like ask him more questions and it would ask him to develop his own thinking around the topic instead of just giving him the answers.

Jennie Magiera (38:31)
Yeah, are we have our version of that? It’s guided learning, which I could be wrong, but I feel like we came out with first. and the other thing to note is that a lot of, technologies are thinking more about that. So we base all of the Gemini fundamental model on

learning sciences. There’s five learning science principles about really pushing the cognition, about stimulating that curiosity, about making sure that they can take it to the next step, etc. So all of that’s built into Gemini, whether or not you’re

learning. So Gemini’s built to help stimulate that cognitive rigor and ensure that you’re like thinking. And then if you go into guided learning mode, it it’s a next level where it’s like I really want you to push me and not just spoon feed me answers.

Kevin Rice (39:11)
That’s great. Cause that’s probably the biggest thing I’m worried about as a parent is my kids growing up and offloading or outsourcing their thinking and not developing

Jennie Magiera (39:19)
Yeah.

Kevin Rice (39:20)
those critical thinking skills.

Jennie Magiera (39:22)
No, I know there’s a lot of concern about cognitive offloading. And again, it’s how can we teach students and young people to use this in smart ways? I I just was working with a high school English teacher and they’re using it for the writing process where like they say use AI, go to Gemini just for brainstorming. So they feed it their initial idea, they use it as a thought partner to like really flesh out the idea and then they put it aside and then they write. And they get pen to paper and they dig into their ideas and then they bring it back to

Feedback and say, like, okay, so here’s where I took it. What do you think? We’re gonna and it pushes them and they put it away. So there’s an intentionality of where it’s going, but all the cognitive rigor and all the the thinking is and creativity is coming from the young person, and then there’s no offloading, it’s just pushing that thinking to a level even beyond. So in the end, the level of cognition is higher than it would have been without the AI.

Kevin Rice (40:12)
Yeah. So I was reading your book and I loved it by the way. And I know it came

Jennie Magiera (40:16)
Thank you.

Kevin Rice (40:16)
out a while ago, but I feel like everything is still so relevant today. And there was a

Jennie Magiera (40:20)
That’s it.

Kevin Rice (40:23)
there’s a part in here where you talk about the digital use divide where there’s kind of passive use and then there’s active use and there’s a little diagram and it shows more active ways of using technology and it shows like coding, immersive simulation.

media production, interaction with experts. And just this little diagram really got me thinking about different projects and activities that I could do with my kids. And so I was curious, are there any examples of projects or activities that you’re doing with your daughters or that other parents could do with their kids to teach them about AI in a more age appropriate way?

Jennie Magiera (40:58)
I think so. I think it’s first thinking about even that writing process. So one of the things that Lucy does is she writes stories with Gemini a lot of times. And so we’ll prompt Gemini and we’ll say, You’re only allowed to ask questions. and you tell Gemini what persona to take. so she’s like, Hi, I’m seven years old, I’m Lucy I’m trying to write a story, and I only want you to help me think about my thinking. I only want you to ask me questions, don’t give me any ideas.

Just help me think differently about what I’m writing.

And so then she’ll be like, okay, what if I had a story about a green fairy who did? And it’s like, tell me more. What is the green fairy? Where do they live? And then Lucy has to answer it. So then, and I’ll sit there with her and we’ll go back and forth. And then we you can put Gemini on pause and then she’ll like write it out. And then I talk to her about it and she illustrates it And Gemini remembers your sessions when you’re signed in. So then three days later, she’s like, okay, I’m ready to go back to Green Fairy story. And we’re like, great, let’s unpause it. Let’s go back to that session. And I’ll say, so last time we talked, I remember

you’re doing this, like what happened to the Green Fairy? She’s like, I don’t know. I’m thinking about this. And it’s like, that’s so interesting. Tell me more about where it went. So that’s been interesting because sometimes I don’t have

the right questions or the right honestly resilience as a parent to have everlasting curiosity for my seven-year-old daughter’s creative writing project. But sitting with her with Gemini doing that, helps me to be like, this is how I could ask her questions in the future. So it’s almost like coaching me about how I could do that with her in the future. So that’s one thing we did recently over the summer.

Kevin Rice (42:25)
That’s great because so my kids were homeschooled for the last couple of years. They’re about to go to a new school this year where it’s more of a child led learning program, a lot of outdoors time. And I was worried that while I love the fact that they’re not on screens all day and they’re getting outside, and I think that’s really important for childhood.

I was worried that they’re not getting introduced to technologies, especially my 10-year-old. It’s time for him to learn

because he’s gonna be using devices for the rest of his life. How important do you think it is for parents to get actively involved and supplement what their kids are learning in school with

projects or activities that they do together to help them learn about new technologies and AI.

Jennie Magiera (43:05)
I think it’s definitely helpful the more we invest in time with our kids at home, the better. But I would also say, like, don’t stress out about it, right? I think the schools are doing a really good job of trying to create these moments. but you don’t have to be like, I have to come up with the next great idea or whatever. So I think one.

Have the conversation with your children, what are you learning? How are we using technology? model it with them. And then if you’re like, I really do think looking at what’s happening in the classroom, seeing what’s happening in the school, you think that it isn’t meeting your level of hope and expectation for exposure and experience for your for your child.

Go to AI, like go to Gemini and be like, hey, I have a 10-year-old, they’re in an experiential learning school. These are the things I want them to do with technology, and these are things I don’t want them to do. I’m a busy CEO, I run a podcast, I have like five minutes on Saturday. Can I have some ideas of something that would help drive the following goals for my child? And it’ll spit some stuff out to you. Some of it you’ll like, some of it you’ll be like, no, but at least it’ll give you some thoughts. So

I think again, prompt it, ask it, but also going back to our the phrase, like giving ourselves some space and grace, but I think at minimum the conversation is important and engaging them about it versus like a blanket ban. Because at the end of the day, unless your child’s gonna go work on a technology-free community in a on a farm or something in the future, like there’s a high likelihood that their future employer is gonna expect them to use technology and and quite likely AI. So how do we set them up for success?

success from a young age to understand the safeguards and appropriate purpose driven uses of it.

Kevin Rice (44:40)
As you think about kind of how you’re preparing your own children, because you have done so much work to help our school systems prepare children all over the world for their future. what do you think is important for your daughters to learn both with technology and then just outside of technology? what are the skills that they need to be developing to be ready to go off into the world in, 10 to 15 years?

Jennie Magiera (45:02)
I think the first is like technology’s a tool, it’s not the answer. You need to know when to use the tool and why to use the tool. and then secondly, I think the biggest thing I’m trying to teach my daughters is social emotional capacity. Like when I’m at work, I I feel like I can coach a lot of my team to be better project managers or write a better strategy or like do things in a spreadsheet. What’s harder is

the the emotional capacity to show up to a difficult situation to communicate well with each other to have empathy for someone else’s opinion and sometimes we’re like they it’s a professional maturity and i’m like i don’t think it’s professional maturity i think it’s like

the the basics of being a human being and how do you talk to each other. So that’s something we I’m working on my d with my daughters all the time. My daughter has a best friend who sometimes is more like a sister than a friend and they fight like cats and dogs. And so we’re always doing resolution circles and like how is she feeling? And I feel like I’m teaching a fourth grade class with her mother and I just like sit them down. We’re like, and how do you think she felt when she said that? but I I see her growing and progressing in that space and and

AI can’t replace that. AI is not gonna be able to help with that. she needs to know how to forge healthy, meaningful relationships herself, whether it’s in the workplace or in her personal life.

Kevin Rice (46:16)
That’s funny. your daughter’s play dates sound very different than my boys’ play dates, which are wild and chaotic and crazy and very destructive at some times. but I agree with you on the social emotional development. two years ago when I put my kids into homeschool, I hired a homeschool teacher and we built a curriculum together. And for the first year, they did some academics, but it was eighty percent social emotional development.

and it really paid off because I saw them better interact with each other, better interact with friends, deal with stress, deal with disappointment. my middle son kind of struggled with like low frustration tolerance. I’ve seen that improve. So a really big focus on social emotional development. And then once they kind of got through that hurdle, then we got back into core academics

so I agree with you. if we’re gonna prepare people for an AI forward world, there’s skills that we need to develop as humans that, the machines aren’t gonna be able to do for us.

Jennie Magiera (47:18)
Absolutely.

Kevin Rice (47:18)
Well, Jennie, I could continue this conversation because I love the topic and it’s something that I’m thinking about all the time. So I just wanted to say thank you for joining today.

Jennie Magiera (47:29)
Thank you. And thank you for having me on when you invited me. I was like, this is something that I’m super passionate about. And so I appreciate that CEOs and ABCs exist. And thank you so much for giving me this space to share.